[brianm]

Obviously English & Scots are much alike.

But look at a political map and there are immediate differences.

Huge swathes of England are coloured blue, yet a Tory MP in Scotland is a rare thing indeed.

Why are so many Scots left of centre?

Are they just looking after their benefits, or is there more to it than that?

[Am_Fìobhach]

BrianM, your assumptions about Scots are quite wrong. For instance, you're probably aware that no one party has achieved a majority of popular vote in the UK since WW2 (closest was Labour in 1951 - about 49.8% I think). You may not, though, be aware that one party DID get majority support in Scotland in 1955 (the last time it happened in Scotland) - and that party was the Conservative Party.

So, it would appear that, certainly 50 or so years ago, Scots tended to be marginally MORE Conservative than English. But you will also know, of course, that, to make broad generalisations to which there are obviously a few exceptions on both sides, Conservative supporters tend to be more oriented towards the individual, while Labour supporters are towards society. And, of course, one way in which "the individual" manifests itself is in the tendency to be more inward-looking than outward-looking. Hence, for instance, the greater measure of support in the Conservative ranks for such things as withdrawal from the EU and so on.

In the context of Scotland, "the individual" also finds another ready outlet, with the entity being Scotland itself. In effect, what has happened is that a large number of people who, put in and English setting, would be Conservative supporters are, in the Scottish setting, SNP supporters. It is, thus, almost certain that, in an English setting, Labour-held seats such as Edinburgh South, Ochil and Stirling would, this election, have returned Conservative MPs, as the combined Conservative and SNP vote in each is more than the Labour vote.

Also, over the years, the steady erosion of the Conservative heartlands by the Lib-Dems (as was also happening in large parts of SW England and Cornwall), coupled with the loss of the "traditional" Protestant vote for the Conservatives in the Glasgow area (now you know why Rangers play in blue), combined to significantly weaken Conservative presence in Scotland, so it could be that many Scots no longer felt the Conservatives to be a particularly credible choice. Add to that general decline the emergence of the SNP - with a spectacular by-election victory, seat taken from Labour, in Hamilton - and the Conservative fate in Scotland was secured: the mainstream right, by and large, now switched to the SNP.

So, those "die-hard" areas in the Highlands that the Liberals had been unable to take fell, in time, to the SNP.

Incidentally, I haven't yet added the figures in detail but I think you'll find that the total vote for Conservative plus SNP in Scotland is, indeed, more than the total vote for Labour. Indeed, there was a swing to Conservative in Scotland this time (and also, very marginally, to SNP), though I think there was also a swing to Labour (the Lib-Dems, as I thought would happen, were somewhat hammered in Scotland, though not enough to actually lose any of their entrenched seats).

On a brighter note (for you), the failure of the SNP to make any progress this time - especially if, at the UK level, the Conservatives can patch up some sort of a deal with what's left of the Lib-Dems - and the general dissatisfaction with the performance of the government in Holyrood - leaves the way wide open for a Conservative comeback in Scotland. For instance, if I were a Conservative straegist, I would now be looking at serious targetting of Perth, Banff & Buchan, Moray and Angus, as well as the usual Labour-held and Lib-Dem-held seats such as Stirling and Inverness.

[PeteBrant]

Pre-Thatcher, the Conservatives enjoyed a steady Conservative following. post Thatcher, and her policy of trying anything remotely contraverisal out on the Scots before rolling out in the rest of the country, basically ensured whilst any one has living memory of it, the Tories can forget Scotland.

Quote:

Are they just looking after their benefits, or is there more to it than that?

No, they are just looking after benefits, because as we all know, all Scots are on benefits, and it makes no sense for someone not on benefits not to vote Tory.
FFS.

[Redcarpet]

Quote:

all Scots are on benefits

Scottish unemployment is pretty high historically, and always above the national rate. Last I read, Northern Ireland always has the highest, then Scotland, then Wales and then England with the lowest rate. Scots smoke alot, buy/drink alchohol, and consume alot of this and that making them vulnerable to the 'stealth' taxes the Tories always whine about but have no problem raising them.

So, no offense to any right-wing Scots here, but it really isn't in a Scot's interest to vote Tory. Most of Englanders are middle-class/ middle income earners, lots of good paying jobs are in London and other English locations. So, off the top of my head, if you're a Scot and you make say....up to 30-40 grand a year you're very lucky and one of few. If you live in England, you're easier placed to absorb consumer tax hikes, especially VAT, petrol, etc. In the regions you'll suffer more because you'll earn maybe half the average Englander does.

Ontop of Englanders getting the better paying jobs, etc, Scotland's getting a increased share of migrants. And we know how they tend to get lower wages, etc, so that's an extra reason why the labour market in Scotland results in lower average wages.

I'm speaking mostly from my experience in Edinburgh, but I think it's generalised across the province increasingly no doubt.

I stayed in the Scottish capital most of an 11 month period; barely 2 hours before my plane back to Australia takes off I get an interview offer from an IT shop blocks away from where I was staying. And that was like....only the 3rd or 4th job interview offer. The other 3 had large spaces of time between and I focus on retail work. It might have been my original status as an Australian, maybe some thought I was just touring about and not after a career, but my intention was to stay, and I think it's safe to say unemployment, esp. with the financial crisis, is affecting Edinburgh too.

W all know how Labour keeps losing the white working class vote to the other parties, even the BNP. General fecklessness, immigration management a big reason, etc. The 2010 election saw a major split in vote,s resulting in a Hung Parliament and the Coalition government we have now. No doubt each party was seen as too similar to eachother, etc.

[Am_Fìobhach]

I think you have it well wrong regarding unemployment rates in Scotland. Last I heard, the figures were getting worse rel. to other UK regions, but still far above the bottom. Now that the UK has a similar government to Scotland, I expect things to even out a little and the relative worsening to slow down.

[Redcarpet]

Quote:

Now that the UK has a similar government to Scotland, I expect things to even out a little and the relative worsening to slow down.

You're saying the Liberal Dems are soon going to stop breaking their promises? Surely the first big test was the Budget and they capitulated to the Tories.

[Am_Fìobhach]

No mate - I was saying that now the political complexion of the Westminster administration more closely matches that of the Holyrood administration, the relative decline in Scottish economic performance over the past 3 years will be hidden in a more general UK-wide decline.

[Gladders]

The Scots are most certainly not any more left-of-centre than England. James Mitchell of the University of Strathclyde has shown in surveys that their political viewpoints are quite similar.

What happened really was since WW2 there was a growing tendency for the Westminster opposition to use Scotland and Wales as political cards, to claim they were being ignored by the English-based government (whichever party).

When Thatcher came into power Scots benefited just as much as English from the positive parts of Thatcher policies. However Labour, LDs and SNP used Scotland and Wales as springboards to attack the Westminster government.

Thatcher, being a British nationalist, not an English one, couldn't relate to anything the Scots or Welsh were complaining about. The problem wasn't that the Tories were becoming Anglo-centric, but that they didn't defend the Union in a way that related to Scottish and Welsh identity - something that the Tories had previously been quite good at.

The Scots and Welsh are just as capable of voting Tory as England - they just have to figure out a way of reconciling their view of Unionism with Scottish and Welsh Unionism. It's been done before and I'm sure they'll manage it again.