[swiatlo]

Abortion - I am against it being legal. It is more than just a 'termination', it is the killing. As I read about it it is legal in the UK "on demand" and "is available free if you are referred through the NHS".

Do you consider abortion as a "health service"? In my eyes it has nothing to do with saving life or health of another being. It is totally opposite and wherefore it should not be done for free at the NHS hospitals.
Excluding abortions on demand would respect the objections of those who condemn this act of violence, and see it as a disgrace, but still are force to participate in this system via compulsory contribution to NHS.

[DDave3]

Abortion is not a disgrace, anything but. Women should have an inalienable right over their own bodies. Unwanted motherhood can be as serious an intrusion on a woman's liberty as imprisonment without trial. The abortion debate is about a fundamental human right; the right of women to decide their own fate. The NHS provides a necessary service, if abortions are not available safely, women will have to turn to unsafe ways of procuring abortion. Just look at Northern Ireland where abortion is just about the sole issue that unites the Sinn Féin, the DUP, SDLP and the Ulster Unionists in a rather shameful brotherhood. Some 50,000 Northern Irish women have come to England for abortions, and 10% of Northern Irish GPs admit to dealing with the aftermath of Victorian style amateur abortions.

[Rifleman]

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Abortion - I am against it being legal.

Why do you think that should be the states business, when you think everything else should be decided by the market?

[UnCivil_Serpent]

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Abortion - I am against it being legal.

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Why do you think that should be the states business, when you think everything else should be decided by the market?

Good question - I'm honestly very interested in your answer as I think it deals with a question I was going ask re: one of your earlier posts.
____________________________

I dislike abortion - given that it is the destruction of life, as well as for the potential harm (both physical and psychological) that it may have on the mother. That said - I do agree completely with DDave3 that every woman MUST have total control over her own body, and that abortion should be avaiable on the NHS throughout the UK. This is an inalienable right that cannot / should not be curbed despite my concerns.

Personally I would hope that abortion can be lessened / avoided by:

1. Advances in medical science - so that the mother's health is in future never put in danger by pregnancy.

2. Advances in society, and policing - so that women and children are not raped or victims of incest.

3. Advances in sex education - so that all people understand the consequences of unprotected sex, and can make an educated choice as to whether and/or when they want to start a family.

4. Better access to family planning and contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

5. Less demand on kids to become sexually active before they are ready / have enough understanding - specifically tackling those parts of the media that target children with a very sexually charged messages.

6. Advances in religion - so that people of all faiths are no longer blinded by dogma, so they don't resist points no.3 and no.4 above. And also that they can accept that women's roles are not always to stay at home to have children - but that women must be allowed as individuals to determin their own life choices.

7. More care homes and better adoption processes for children who are unwanted.

8. Better support for mothers who would have abortions because they fear they cannot adequately care for a family.

I'm sure there are others - that don't include denying women an important right to control their bodies.

[swiatlo]

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Why do you think that should be the states business, when you think everything else should be decided by the market?

I don't believe in NHS at all. Health care industry should be private and participation voluntary not compulsory. For the moment we have to live with this cancer and solve all the problems it generates. It is a far way to go to replace NHS, but since we have it some nasty issues must be dealt within the system.
First of all I believe in small government, a minimal government. With clearly defined narrow areas of action. The role of government is to protect natural rights to Life, Liberty, and Property of an individual.

“Reason, which is that Law teaches all Mankind, who would but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his Life, Health, Liberty, or Possessions.”
John Locke

There is one fundamental question that needs to be addressed. Is the baby inside the womb a human being? If yes this should end the discussion and this barbaic practice – all people have a right to live. If a fetus is not a human being – this should end the discussion to. The woman should have a right to remove the carcass for her convenience in that case.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

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The role of government is to protect natural rights to Life

And saving lives is a prime function of the National Health Service.

[Desmond]

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I don't believe in NHS at all. Health care industry should be private and participation voluntary not compulsory.

So if it was done privately then it would be okay to kill babies?

Answer the question you were asked, should the market private or not perform abortions if there is demand?

[swiatlo]

Prosthetic Conscience: That is very simplistic understanding of a notion RIGHTS and LIBERTIES.
To run the business called NHS the state must stand up against the property and liberty of its citizens. If someone has "a right to something" (housing, education, medical care, transport) it means that someone else is force to provide it. Second becomes a slave of the first.
For the government to protect life means to prevent individuals for taking unlawful, violent action against each other, and to punish those who act against others to harm another in his Life, Health, Liberty, or Possessions
It is enough when the government force others to pay for common good - a public purpose. That is when it is impossible to set apart the provision to direct it to those how pay only. (e.g. street lighting, army). Google the topic of a negative rights and liberties and positive R&L (which is a newspeak of the XX century) and its classic definitions.

Desmond: So if it was done privately then it would be okay to kill babies?
Do not think more then it has been said.
It would be wrong in all cases, since a baby is a human to. A demand is not enough to allow others (the market) to do things. A golden rule is: everything should be allowed if there is no victim and all parties of the exchange mutually and freely agreed to carry on. Since we all suffer from the existence of NHS, my point is to exclude abortions -- for the beginning. Do not use fund it from public money and force those who hate it sponsor it.

[Desmond]

I disagree with treating the elderly or women should they be excluded too? Or should personal prejudice not come into it?

You can't stop the market supplying for demand, abortion will always exist, it just get messier when it's illegal.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

Welcome to the 21st century, swiatlo. It's better than the 18th.

[swiatlo]

66 British babies survived abortion in the UK


Gianna Jessen Abortion Survivor testimony

[Desmond]

That's not even a point or argument. What bearing does that figure have on if abortion should be legal or not?

[Hannigaholic]

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For the government to protect life means to prevent individuals for taking unlawful, violent action against each other

Then abortion is ok, because it is lawful? Or if violent action always bad, then the entire concept of an army is also bad, yet you support that (and even provision of it by the state).

And what about the case where both baby and mother have a low chance of survival if the pregnancy continues? Isn't it better to kill the baby to ensure the mother lives rather than do nothing, which will most likely result in both dying?

It seems to me that life is far too complex to have hard and fast, black and white beliefs in the moral superiority of any particular view on a topic.

[EricShern]

I am astounded, I started to read this forum with the intention of winding people up & taking the rise by acting a little stupid ......... then I find someone has already beat me to it.

He'll do well in government this boy as he cannot answer a straight question and simply throws in heart softening facts.

[WasabiDan]

Abortion is not a pretty business, but it's a necessary [evil?] thing for some women.
And yes, of course there are wrong and right reasons for a woman wanting one, but that's up to her.
It's hard enough to go through for many of them, especially if it's some backstreet doctor doing it.

[Matchbox10]

Abortian is a regret. Maybe not today maybe not tomorrow but some day and for the rest of your life

[rociano]

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Abortian is a regret. Maybe not today maybe not tomorrow but some day and for the rest of your life

Maybe not.

[Quantum]

I've nothing against abortion since I don't buy in the natural rights nonsense as they are social constructs and not inalienable. An unwanted child is better off not existing in the first place, as it would have a poor quality of life as a result of being born to irresponsible parents. There are too many people who engage in irresponsible sexual relations and who are in no condition to raise a child in successful conditions, so it is best for her and society if the foetus was aborted in the first place to prevent tragic lives from occurring. I'd rather pay these people a handsomely sum to take permanent birth control but abortion is the next best thing.

[FarqBllX]

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Abortion is not a disgrace, anything but. Women should have an inalienable right over their own bodies. Unwanted motherhood can be as serious an intrusion on a woman's liberty as imprisonment without trial

That's as extreme as my views on Capital Punishment DD3. Perhaps if some women kept their legs shut or made their partners, one night stands etc put something on the end of it we wouldn't have such a great problem. Oh and it's bollox.

[Redcarpet]

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it has nothing to do with saving life

It does if the mothers' had a miscarriage, etc, and risks dying giving birth.