[Argamemnon]

There are currently 27 countries in the European Union. In addition there are nine more very poor countries from eastern Europe, that are negotiating to join the EU.

The largest of these applicant countries is Turkey, which has a population of 72 million.

This expanded EU will consist of 36 countries. Every person in this enlarged EU will then have the legal right of permanent residence, to live and work here in Britain.

Applicant countries include:-
Croatia, Macedonia, Turkey, Serbia, Kosova, Albania, Bosnia, Montenegro, and Iceland.

[Am_Fìobhach]

Just a slight correction - apart from a small enclave in SE Europe, most of Turkey is actually in Asia, not Europe. Also, Iceland is actually a very poor country in NW Europe, not Eastern Europe.

Anyway, delighted to see you're supporting this potential for growth and more international co-operation.

[Argamemnon]

Am_Fìobhach

Do you support the current plan to expand the European Union to 36 countries?

Or put it another way is bigger always better?

[Am_Fìobhach]

Well, in general, yes, but I have my doubts about Turkey (it's mainly in Asia, not Europe) and Iceland (currently seems intent on defaulting on debts).

[Argamemnon]

Am_Fìobhach

It may surprise you but of all the countries in the European Union, Britain is the keenest for Turkey to join, and is pushing hard for it. France had Germany have grave boubts about it. But in Britain all the three major parties are united in their support for Turkey to join the EU, as soon as possible.

[Am_Fìobhach]

What - the SNP, Labour and the Conservatives?

I do not go along with things just because Party X says so (or even because Party Y says no). However, there are some parties that I can really find virtually no common ground with at all - they just seem to be wrong about virtually everything. And, of course, one of those is UKIP.

The main thing wrong with it is that it tries to hold up the chimera of "independence" when not even a really closed society like North Korea can exist independently from the rest of the world. The key to getting on - as any worldly-wise statesman from the far left to the far right will acknowledge, is co-operation. And, to an extent, that involves reducing independence.

[ResistanceIsStrong]

The more the EU expands, the less our own MEPS vote will count, and so less relevant to the (individual) voter will become. And all this, when we have just handed the European massive increases in powers-oppression.
So EU expansion is good for lessening the individuals voice, not just in England, but throughout all Europe (including those who were given the "freedom" to reject the 95% similar, "European Constitution").
So well done to our MEPS for turning a common market into the fastest expanding empire since Nazi Germany, it has surely been a great demonstration of the elites, of (almost) institutional, political parties, overcoming the will of their own electorates.

P.S Whenever I see that scheming, old, Dutch, git, (the one they call, their president!) I think to myself of Stalin, Hitler, and Napoleon. It's because these men would have saved a lot of life, if they had "legitimised" their power through a "fake democracy" (one just like, how the EU is, today).

[Am_Fìobhach]

The current EU President is a Mr. van Rompuy (not sure I've spelt it right, but it's something like that - and he's actually Belgian, in whatever the Belgian wing of the mainstream right-wing Eurogroup is called (you know, the one the German CPD are in, the one Fine Gael is in, the one Sarkozy's lot is in - and Berlusconi's - the one the Conservatives used to be in before they lost the plot and teamed up with a few Polish dissidents of a somewhat racist persuasion).

It is undeniably true that, the larger the number of people covered, the less say any individual has in what the group does. This is probably the main reason why I believe in decentralisation - passing as much power as can be passed to subordinate bodies. This, indeed, is one reason why England is in such a bad way as regards democracy - it has only one regional authority (Greater London) and most of its "unitary authorities" are too small to deal effectively with the sort of legislative powers enjoyed by, e.g., the Lender in Germany, the Scottish Parliament or the various regional governments in Spain. There is a fair bit of "good practice" in terms of devolution that happens in other EU member states that the UK could learn from.

[RobRiley]

Of course I am aware of Icelands recent financial problems via icesave bank but I thought that prior to that happening Iceland was a fairly wealthy and prosperous country.

The IMF puts Iceland in 15th place for GDP (per capita) and the World banks puts it 10th place.

[Am_Fìobhach]

Quote:

Ekki er að spauga með þá íslenskt sjómans blóð

...as they say.

[ResistanceIsStrong]

Thanks for the correction, but be it Belgium, Dutch or German the thing that irritates me is he isn't Englishman (nor in all probability ever will be). And yet I believe that all people who decide our policies should at least qualify to vote in our elections (i.e be citizens). And just in case any Europhiles get any bad ideas from that comment; I wasen't talking about through greater "integration"!).
But I'm glad you support decentralisation, Am_Fiobhack.
Needless to say (if I had my way) the EU would be so decentralised that it would be nothing more than a meeting place, and a few basic trade agreements. But that's not where the EU is going, and till it does, I'm backing the Independence Partyies.

[Roach]

I probably have less in common with someone from the north of england than with someone from northern france. As such I don't feel much opposed to a huge european state.

[RobRiley]

Roach - I wouldn't personally draw the line there but I agree with what you are saying, I feel I have much more in common with continental europeans than I do with the UK, mainly in terms of mentality.

[Roach]

Its probably a line of preference Rob , I like northerners but the reality is there seems to be a massive culture difference between north and south, which is better i'll let others decide!

[Am_Fìobhach]

Northern England - Cumbrian sheep farmers, Pennine holiday homes, the wild wastes of Kielder, well-heeled Ponteland, the lush Tyne Valley, the Vale of York, the Cheadle stockbrokers - such a very different place to...

Southern England - London East End sweat shops, unemployed former Kent miners, Bristol inner city squalor, agricultural labourers in tied cottages, Norfolk food factories...

Perhaps the "differences" are more illusory than you suppose. But then. on the odd occasion I've been in Belgium it strikes me as being very little different to most parts of the UK. Same for northern France or Holland or Denmark or northern Germany. Yes, it gets a bit different if you go south or east far enough, but it all blends in with its neighbours.

[ResistanceIsStrong]

I'm sorry but regardless whether the personalities of Belgium people are closer to you, than those of Northerners the fact is that they do not live in the same economy, same law system, and same territory as us, and therefore Belgiium people are likely to have different concerns to those who directly share in our own governments decisions.
E.g: I don't know what the roads are like in Belgium, but as far as I can tell they're pretty shit (of the motorway) throughout the U.K. I don't know what the Belgium qualification system is like, but as far as I know the problem employeers are finding with "grade inflatiuon" (so Labour could cover up it's education problems) are much the same as they are in the North as they are in the South.
These are the sorts of issues that bind us, and so bring much logic to the idea that English citizens should be the only ones to choose the people, to solve our own problems. Therefore personality counts for little (when you compare it with these practical problems).

[RobRiley]

AF - I take it you have never been to Rotheram then

[RobRiley]

RIS - Are defending your anti-europe position by saying that the UK is crap and Europe is much better?

[Roach]

RIS,

The fact I do not share the same economy, law system and territory with those people of belgium is something that im suggesting should happen. You seem to be suggesting we should be against integrating our system with europeans because Europeans don't have our system.

Interestingly on the "gradeflation" there is suggestion that there is IQflation and the IQ scores have to be upped a small amount every year.

[ResistanceIsStrong]

Originally posted by RobRiley

Quote:

RIS - Are you defending your anti-europe position by saying that the UK is crap and Europe is much better?

No, I'm saying there are areas where we are good-bad, and areas where they are too. You like to compare us with Belgium, well under the EU our peoples votes get mixed in (various Brussels coalitions) just as thoroughly with those cast by the Polish. I'm saying this is obviously flawed for dealing with problems within a nation, that it's better if a nations own citizens-residents make the decisions.
Of course there is rarely a limit to those who could help solve a (given) problem, and so that's about the only thing Europe needs the EU for (i.e. as a trade regulator, currency and possible inter-state bank).

Roach: I'm against intergrating our system with theirs, because there's no (good) reason why the leaders of the EU country (and "democratically" elected through the 27 member state EU sytem, will be better than the current one where a country of 60 million sends 600 members to parliament.