[Pat]

I found this an interesting read and it's relevance to the EU.

http://uk.oneworld.net/guides/globalisa ... lAodc0OxoQ

[Pat]

Symbols of Europe:

Charlemagne:

Quote:

The crowns of both the Holy Roman Empire and Napoleon Bonaparte are named "the crown of Charlemagne."

Catholic overtones.

Carolingian Empire:

Quote:

Carolingian Empire is a historiographical term which has been used to refer to the realm of the Franks under the Carolingian dynasty. This dynasty is seen as the founders of France and Germany.

Surely there is more to Europe than France and Germany?

Saint Hedwig:

Quote:

The Roman Catholic Church canonised in 1997 Poland's 14th century monarch Jadwiga as Saint Hedwig, the patron saint of European unification.

Catholic overtones.

The EU anthem

Quote:

The European anthem is based on the prelude to "The Ode to Joy", 4th movement of Ludwig van Beethoven's Symphony No. 9

German composer.

Europe Day:

Quote:

"Europe Day" is a celebration of Europe held annually on 9 May due to differences between the CoE and EU. 9 May 1950 was the date of the "Schuman Declaration", the proposal to pool the French and West German coal and steel industries. This is considered a founding moment for what is now the EU and was adopted as its flag day at the Milan European Council summit in 1985.

I see that in 1985 Schuman, a Frenchman, was still considered relavant by the EU.

EU motto:

Quote:

United in Diversity coined by Italian Ernesto Teodoro Moneta

I found this humourous because he was an utter patriot who gave his support for Italy's entry into World War I.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_symbols

[Pat]

Only sixteen countries of the twenty seven that make up the EU have adopted the Euro.

[Am_Fìobhach]

Pat wrote:

It's comments like the one you have made above that provokes me into making my comments on how some posters will use ridicule/political correctness etc to try to belittle or suppress another's view . . . It's cheap.

Yes, but, regrettably, true in your case.

Pat wrote:

Symbols of Europe:

Charlemagne:
The crowns of both the Holy Roman Empire and Napoleon Bonaparte are named "the crown of Charlemagne."
Catholic overtones.

Carolingian Empire:
Carolingian Empire is a historiographical term which has been used to refer to the realm of the Franks under the Carolingian dynasty. This dynasty is seen as the founders of France and Germany.
Surely there is more to Europe than France and Germany?

Saint Hedwig:
The Roman Catholic Church canonised in 1997 Poland's 14th century monarch Jadwiga as Saint Hedwig, the patron saint of European unification.
Catholic overtones.

The EU anthem
The European anthem is based on the prelude to "The Ode to Joy", 4th movement of Ludwig van Beethoven's Symphony No. 9
German composer.

Europe Day:
"Europe Day" is a celebration of Europe held annually on 9 May due to differences between the CoE and EU. 9 May 1950 was the date of the "Schuman Declaration", the proposal to pool the French and West German coal and steel industries. This is considered a founding moment for what is now the EU and was adopted as its flag day at the Milan European Council summit in 1985.
I see that in 1985 Schuman, a Frenchman, was still considered relavant by the EU.

EU motto:
United in Diversity coined by Italian Ernesto Teodoro Moneta
I found this humourous because he was an utter patriot who gave his support for Italy's entry into World War I.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_symbols

And that posting from your good self does illustrate the point rather well. I don't suppose you thought to check which side Italy actually fought for in WW1 did you? You might be surprised!

[Pat]

It wouldn't matter if he was fighting on behalf of the Martians, the point was he was all for diversity and a pacifist but showed his hypocrasy by throwing it all out of the window in favour of patriotism. Ha! Yes, his nationalistic pride! Ha, ha!

[Pat]

Ah, those wonderful EU open borders!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... reets.html

And why would we allow this? Ah, in the interest of globalization . . . That's money to you and I (but not for you and I!).

[Pat]

[Pat]

Quote:

Whitehall has finally admitted that it is forced by law - on pain of fines - to boost European Union propaganda and fly the European flag.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... place.html

[Am_Fìobhach]

Pat wrote:

It wouldn't matter if he was fighting on behalf of the Martians, the point was he was all for diversity and a pacifist but showed his hypocrasy by throwing it all out of the window in favour of patriotism. Ha! Yes, his nationalistic pride! Ha, ha!

Many of us feel a certain "pride" in, for instance, where we happen to stay, where we happen to work, where we came from, where our sundry ancestors came from - and so forth. In some instances, this may lead us to support such an area - e.g. a country - in a conflict. What it does not do, though, is to diminish our feelings for other areas we're also associated with, and when peace returns we resume.

To attempt to dub everybody who feels it appropriate for their particular country to enagage in a particular conflict as some sort of narrow-minded, bigoted, patriotic nationalist is, to say the least, inaccurate.

[Pat]

Nonsense, and I think you know it.

You can't be a pacifist and a warmonger when it suits you. You are either one or the other. You can however change your mind and opinion, but it shows that your original thoughts/beliefs were ill thought out or based on ignorance. A person's credibility would also be hurt if one's allegiances are switched so easily.

Take yourself for example. When you are in agreement everything is hunky dory. On the other hand when your beliefs/ideas/wants are challenged and you can't rebut the challenge with good argument you try to discredit the percieved 'attacker' instead of opening your mind to another possibility. This is, in my experience, typical of a high percentage of academics indoctrinated into a blinkered world view.

Of course I don't hold this against you, an indoctrination is hard to shake off (especially when you don't want to shake it off).

I'm not sure you know what you believe in. One minute you are defending the EU the next you are defending nationalism. The two things are poles apart. Infact you are comparable to the fellow you are defending.

Quote:

A_F: To attempt to dub everybody who feels it appropriate for their particular country to enagage in a particular conflict as some sort of narrow-minded, bigoted, patriotic nationalist is, to say the least, inaccurate.

As is your statement. Again you have taken a post and manipulated it to read how you wish to read it. Everybody? Bigoted? Narrow minded? Your words, not mine. I said he was a hypocrite.

[Am_Fìobhach]

Pat wrote:

Take yourself for example. When you are in agreement everything is hunky dory. On the other hand when your beliefs/ideas/wants are challenged and you can't rebut the challenge with good argument you try to discredit the percieved 'attacker' instead of opening your mind to another possibility. This is, in my experience, typical of a high percentage of academics indoctrinated into a blinkered world view.

Might I humbly suggest the use of a mirror, Pat?

[Pat]

No, but you may humble yourself before me.

You have no idea, even though I stated it (somewhere?) what I'm doing. I'm not posting my beliefs, I'm posting other people's beliefs for debate/rebuttal etc. I ask the question and see if any meaningful replies come back. This way a person can sort the chaff from the wheat and see what's left. Attacking the poster enlightens no one . . . You just seem to want to butt heads.

[Pat]

Quote:

Redcarpet: How much is a EU MP's salary and what is their annual allowance total?

Quote:

Britain to challenge eurocrat salaries
Britain is set to challenge European Union salaries after the number of its most senior officials, earning up to £180,000, rose to 100 at a time of deep cuts to national public sector budgets.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... aries.html

[Am_Fìobhach]

Pat wrote:

No, but you may humble yourself before me.

You have no idea, even though I stated it (somewhere?) what I'm doing. I'm not posting my beliefs, I'm posting other people's beliefs for debate/rebuttal etc. I ask the question and see if any meaningful replies come back. This way a person can sort the chaff from the wheat and see what's left. Attacking the poster enlightens no one . . . You just seem to want to butt heads.

Pat, in view of the fact that you have, for instance, expressed you support for some rather outlandishly anti-EU postings by others, to claim that you are "not posting your beliefs" is facile beyond belief.

You really DO need that mirror, don't you?

[Pat]

Mirror Mirror on the wall, 'yes, Pat, you are the fairest of them all'.

Nope, I posted what you described as a 'biased' source, which I acknowleged, to see if it could be rebutted. I have stated clearly I'm not up to speed on the EU and am trying to gain some clarity on the subject, this means investigating it from all angles. If I don't look at all angles then I am guilty of prejudice. If my postings all seem anti-EU that is because at present the material I am reading is anti-EU and I confess I am starting out from an anti-EU stance. It's important to note that I said anti-EU and not anti-Europe. Eventually I will get around to reading pro-EU material (I can only read one book at a time). I have also joined a pro-EU forum to get their perspective on the topic.

I believe your real gripe is that you are pro-EU and anyone who disagrees with your indoctrinated beliefs will always be open to attack rather than debate. It's my view that you are a Scottish person, who would like to see the break up of Britain, giving greater self governing powers to Scotland rather than them coming from London. The EU is a way to acheive this. I don't know what your aim would be from then on, but going by your comments in an earlier posting regarding someone having a right to be patriotic it might lead one to presume that once Scoland is completely free of British rule you might then decide that you have no further use for the EU . . . Personally I think the finacial gain would keep you a supporter of the EU . . . You can't be two things at once ie: patriotic and muliticultural.

It might be helpful to both of us if you would give a poster a bit of leeway. I don't forget how helpful you were when I first joined the forum. Please don't let differing views cause unnecessary conflicts.

P.S. This is not to put all the blame on you. I am guilty too.

[emilia]

Am_Fiobhach wrote:

Pat, in view of the fact that you have, for instance, expressed you support for some rather outlandishly anti-EU postings by others ...

I'm curious. Do you think any of my postings are outlandish? If so, why?

[Am_Fìobhach]

Pat wrote:

I believe your real gripe is that you are pro-EU and anyone who disagrees with your indoctrinated beliefs . . .

Considering I voted AGAINST EU membership last time we had a referendum, it's not me who's the "indoctrinated" one around here.

Fetch that mirror.

[Am_Fìobhach]

Oh, ay Emily - yes, I'd say (without doing an actual count) that the majority of your posts contain "outlandish" views - which, of course, you're quite entitled to hold. But don't expect them to go unchallenged!

[Pat]

Am_Fìobhach wrote:

Considering I voted AGAINST EU membership last time we had a referendum, it's not me who's the "indoctrinated" one around here.

You are all for the EU now, what's changed your mind? Did you realize that it was a chance for Scotland to break free of Britain? Something changed your mind that's for sure.

Quote:

Fetch that mirror.

I can't get it out of your hand.

The only thing I've been indoctrinated into is common sense. But I'll give you a chance, as I've said in another thread, sell the EU to me. My mind is open to a good reason why we should fully integrate with the EU and if that reason is supplied' with evidence' I'll sign up. All I'm asking for is a good reason for all the double dealing, back stabbing, deceitful, undemocratic, curruption ridden and dishonest people that make up the EU. Show me why this is necessary to create this wonderful eutopia? Sometimes the end does justify the means so I'm open to an explanation. I truly am! There has to be some justification for the madness?

[Pat]

Am_Fìobhach wrote:

Oh, ay Emily - yes, I'd say (without doing an actual count) that the majority of your posts contain "outlandish" views - which, of course, you're quite entitled to hold. But don't expect them to go unchallenged!

Then challenge them rather than making snide comments.