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Post 28 Nov 2006, 21:44
Well worth the full read:

The Times wrote:
Meet Mr SNP and his fantastical snide-show
David Aaronovitch

The strange unrealpolitik of Alex Salmond, MP

I’ve long had this one, pleasant fantasy: which is that, somehow, people get what they say they want, but it all happens in some kind of parallel existence and I don’t have to suffer from their preferences. Examples might be Osama bin Laden is left in Afghanistan, speed cameras are removed, there’s a Lib Dem government or Ken Livingstone becomes mayor of London.

On Sunday I was thinking about Scotland. A series of weekend polls seemed to be suggesting that the Scottish National Party could come out top in the elections in May, and that right now a majority of Scots would favour a move to complete independence from the United Kingdom. An ICM poll put support for Scottish independence at 52 per cent in Scotland and — a backhanded compliment this — at 59 per cent in England. The Welsh, apparently, were not consulted.

I am not completely confident about this last figure. Polls that ask respondents to choose between real alternatives (independence and, say, devolution) register much lower support for separation. As you can imagine I find myself in a lot of discussions with a lot of people, and never once have I had somebody set their drink on the table, lean forward with furrowed brow and say: “You know, the one of the things that I would most like is for the Scots to have independence.” In fact, never once has anyone of any kind in any situation ever mentioned it to me.

Anyway — in this other dimension Scotland does indeed elect an SNP government with Alex Salmond as its First Minister, and subsequently votes at a referendum for independence. And yes, for this scenario to be sufficiently entertaining Mr Salmond must actually be elected to run something, and thus be shorn of his habitual role as super-snide sideline critic, his nasal sneer now turned to plaintive defence of his own inevitable disasters.

You think I don’t like him? He’s clever, is Alex. He is the debater par excellence, the sixth former with the answer for everything. His party is in the high moral business of squaring circles, giving the business of making impossible promises an almost religious dimension. Under the SNP there would be cuts in local taxes, more money on health, local hospitals kept open, no student debt, a reduction of burdens on small business, while — apparently — being able to replicate the economic success that Ireland has enjoyed by making life easier for big business.

As for independence, well Scotland would be better off because, as I understand Mr Salmond’s complex argument, Scotland is a small country and some small independent countries are doing well economically, therefore independent Scotland will do well economically. Some small countries are, of course, doing badly, but Scotland won’t be like those, because it is full of geniuses, entrepreneurs and Scottish nationalists.

Naturally, though “London” has apparently acted like some kind of sheet anchor on Scotland’s ability to grow as fast as, say, Iceland, the SNP presumption is that, when independence is negotiated, and as plans are advancing for border checks (yes, of course there will have to be border checks, ask the Norwegians) and Scottish embassies (or maybe they could rent out rooms from the British embassies), what is left of the United Kingdom will say, sure — let’ s do it on your terms. Of course it’s all your oil, we had nothing to do with it. And by the way, please don’t imagine that we will act in any way to reassume control of any of our natural “English” or “Welsh” assets currently held by Scots.

What I most dislike about the SNP, however, is its necessary chauvinism. “For Scotland to flourish,” says Mr Salmond, “our economy must be free from London control”; “Labour’s policy of sending up the heavies from London . . .”; “Mr McConnell is like a little boy lost and hardly gets a look-in while his London bosses take centre stage”; “we were lucky enough to discover oil and gas as well, but we gave all of ours away to the London exchequer”; “those revenues either flow south to London or they can be invested for the people of Scotland”. London’s taken our money, London’s controlling our Parliament, everything would be great if we didn’t have London. And for London, of course, read England. For England read “the other”.

I am not going to argue with Mr Salmond about the extent to which English people or companies might have helped to discover “his” oil and gas, or the extent to which Scotland might have been subsidised by English enterprise or natural resources. I am not going to argue about it because it’s so obviously demeaning.

What interests me, however, is the magical thinking involved in the increasing tolerance of Mr Salmond’s scapegoating. These days you find some Scottish Tories arguing, as one did this month in Prospect magazine, that independence — by removing the English scapegoat and the London subsidies — would force the Scots to confront their own demons. The new independent government, they suggest, would have no choice but to make the self-same tough decisions on public expenditure and the role of the State that the SNP is so determined to avoid. There are some English constitutionalists who, despairing of our lack of interest in regional assemblies and the West Lothian question, also believe that Scottish independence would — as one put it — “concentrate minds in England about where we want to go”.

None of this will happen. The Scots chauvinists would not be one whit happier for being completely separate (just as they weren’t happy with substantial devolution), and would work even harder to discover why their failure was really the fault of England. The gap between their promises and the Scottish reality would always be found to have an external cause. The English, on the other hand (including the new Anglo-Poles, the English-Africans, the Telford Caribbeans) might moan about the passport man getting on the train near Berwick, but — with traditional complacency — would otherwise soon get over it.

But what a strange, backward-looking argument to be having as we contemplate massive population mobility, technological advances, Islamist terrorism and international environmental crises. Or perhaps that’s exactly why such an argument is happening now. The argument for Scottish independence is essentially an argument for avoiding hard choices; which is why Alex Salmond is so well qualified to make it. If there were a parallel dimension it would be fun to watch him win. But there isn’t.
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Post 28 Nov 2006, 21:59
What a load of shite!

It's not even worth rising to this.
And it probably explains why The Times doesn't sell any papers here. Spoken by someone who clearly doesn't have a clue what's happening in Scotland.

So... I'm an anti-English chauvanist because I want Scotland to rejoin the international community on her own terms. Tell that to my grandparents (from Wiltshire!) and my wife (from Liverpool!) Desperate desperate stuff, from the voice of a dying union.
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Post 29 Nov 2006, 09:02
Aye, more like the Daily Rabble outsells The Times because among the masses in Scotland, brains are a scarce commodity.

Proberly explains our much lower life expectancy too huh?
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Post 29 Nov 2006, 09:31
True, the Daily Record is an absolute disgrace of a paper, but its sales are plummetting through the floor these days.
Each and every one of our newspapers in Scotland backs the union, so it says a lot for the strength of the independence argument that support is so high.
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Post 29 Nov 2006, 19:12
Nothing new here, the same old desperate argument.

Had to quote this part...

Quote:
But what a strange, backward-looking argument to be having as we contemplate massive population mobility, technological advances, Islamist terrorism and international environmental crises. Or perhaps that’s exactly why such an argument is happening now. The argument for Scottish independence is essentially an argument for avoiding hard choices


The argument for Scottish Independence is one for self-determination and sovereignty, to allow us to take control of our future and make the decisions which affect OUR lives, instead of such decisions being made in London. It is precisely the OPPOSITE to what Aaronovitch claims.

Roll on May
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Post 30 Nov 2006, 00:00
the rise in support is coming from the grassroot upwards. Labour's dreadful Conference last week at Oban showed how desperate Labour were. When they insult our intelligence the public realise they (Labour)are in John Reid's words, 'not fit for purpose'
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Post 30 Nov 2006, 08:46
Quote:
to allow us to take control of our future and make the decisions which affect OUR lives, instead of such decisions being made in London.


Of course some 75% of decisions made in "London" are in fact the result of EU Directives from Brussels, yet you are in favour of EU membership so in fact you'll only be breaking free of a small amount of decision making, the bulk of which is already devolved to Holyrood.

The question being, what's the point?
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Post 30 Nov 2006, 10:20
Quote:
they (Labour)are in John Reid's words, 'not fit for purpose'


He meant that in reference to the Home Office though...
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my political compass is: who actually cares?
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Post 01 Dec 2006, 01:49
Jubilee,

Thank you for raising this point!

Of course, should Scotland go independent then we can't have the pound no more huh? Well Salmond and all the McSporrans within the SNP can either create a new currency or we can join the Euro.

I'll give you five GBP - for as long as they exist anyway - if you tell me which one it would be.


Yeah.... an independent Scotland despite the fact 75% of our law comes from the EU that the SNP want to remain within; and our monetary policy would be dictated by Europe too, and as such even more of our soverignity would be signed away.

It's about time these nationalists engaged their brain as well as their hearts.
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Post 01 Dec 2006, 02:11
Quote:
Of course some 75% of decisions made in "London" are in fact the result of EU Directives from Brussels, yet you are in favour of EU membership so in fact you'll only be breaking free of a small amount of decision making, the bulk of which is already devolved to Holyrood.

The question being, what's the point?


The point is a Scottish government will be getting across our issues in the EU rather than a British one.
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Post 01 Dec 2006, 13:15
If Scotland becomes independent we can still have the same currency as England, or not, have the euro, or not.
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Post 01 Dec 2006, 19:56
Quote:
The point is a Scottish government will be getting across our issues in the EU rather than a British one.


And whom will listen to them? You think that the EU government will give its 20th strongest economy much of a look in?
Frasier has left the building
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Post 01 Dec 2006, 22:59
Quote:
If Scotland becomes independent we can still have the same currency as England, or not, have the euro, or not.


The pound is known as GBP because it means Great Britain Pound.

If Scotland is no longer in Britain, why should we be entitled to continue to use someone elses money?
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Post 01 Dec 2006, 23:59
It'd be almightly contradictory for the Scots to use the GBP (£) if Scotland left the Union because they wouldn't be in Britain, it'd be like America using the Euro (€).
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Post 02 Dec 2006, 01:43
People can we have a bit of perspective here…

Lets end all these notions of independence bring about catastrophe

The currency wont change overnight, barricades wont shoot up at the bored, you’ll still be able to see eastenders on the BBC

In an independent Scotland day to day living won’t be any different for the vast, vast, vast majority of people

(It may be different for a few…

Our young people would be able to live in a country where they get taught about our history as schools

Our old people would live in a country where they are treated respect

People would live in a country where they could get good jobs

Asylum seekers would be in a country where they would get treated with the dignity they deserve

And eventually we’d all live in a nuclear weapons free regime!!)

But over all there won’t be much difference so let’s stop all the crap and scaremongering.

The currency might change…. but …. newsflash!!!

Scotland has its own currency just now, our own banknotes…not currently accepted (with easy) in England… So who’s to say we won’t use that, and if the queen remains head of state for a few years then we can use the coins and carry on regardless.

Until the Republican referendum but that’s another story

As for the Euro, we’re all going to have it eventually, so might as well get used to it

Rambling over …. For now
running at the edge of their world
They're criticising something they just can't understand
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Post 02 Dec 2006, 12:10
Quote:
As for the Euro, we’re all going to have it eventually, so might as well get used to it


I think it's pretty clear that the UK is not going to have the Euro. The advantages of not doing so are proven and conclusive.
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Post 02 Dec 2006, 12:23
Ireland has the euro and we are doing fine.
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Post 02 Dec 2006, 13:04
Northern Ireland is doing well out of the Euro too. Every weekend shoppers come from the South to fill their cars with groceries and other goods that have been hiked in price south of the border due to the Euro.

The highest grossing branch of M&S in the UK is at Sprucefield, an out of town shopping centre near Lisburn, 30 miles from the border.
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Post 02 Dec 2006, 14:01
Quote:
Our young people would be able to live in a country where they get taught about our history as schools

Our old people would live in a country where they are treated respect

People would live in a country where they could get good jobs

Asylum seekers would be in a country where they would get treated with the dignity they deserve

And eventually we’d all live in a nuclear weapons free regime!!)


It was Leftwing parties like the SNP and their Politically-Correct cronies that curbed the teaching of British history and British religion (Christianity).

Our old people could be treated with respect now.

There are loads of good jobs in Scotland as we stand - thanks to the strong Pound, it is the British capital markets that are doing well - there has been more IPOs on the London stock exchanges than Wall St. That's one of the reasons why we have loads of financial services opportunities.

I'd rather keep both our nuclear power and our nuclear weapons too, thanks.

If there was a nuclear meltdown in France, Germany, England or anywhere else - do you think the fallout would stop at Hadrians Wall? Of course not so if we are already exposed to the risks we might as well have the rewards too.

The impression I get is the SNP want to create a 'nuclear free Scotland' so that we can use it as an advertising gimmick rather than anything of substance, which is disgraceful.
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Post 03 Dec 2006, 00:40
The English are forming these pathetic arguements for refusing Scotland independence.
So far, a devolved government, has done NOTHING but ban smoking in my opinion.
Scotland - is a country. Not a tax region of England
GO SNP!
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